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Why turbo a 3SGE BEAMS?


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#1 WaynO

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:48 AM

I found this a interesting read on our BEAMS forum so thought I would share for all the turbo lovers out there!


I'm sure we've all seen posts where people say "Why turbo a BEAMS?" hopefully my experience will help to change this to "Why not turbo a BEAMS?".

I was going to wait a while to post about this engine as the development work is not finished and also, it's not really my project - it's Patricks. However, he is as keen as I am to show the results as a lot of people seem to doubt it would work.

Having owned a Rev(Gen)3 MR2 turbo for nearly 4 years now and covered 55k miles in it, I wasn't looking for a new engine, but as we had two MR2's and no 'sensible' car one of the MR2's had to go, which was the N/A BEAMS. We'd already bought a nice hatchback as a replacement car so the BEAMS car had to go quickly or I would have to take out a new insurance policy, this coincided with Patrick from Rogue selling his own fully built, Red Top Turbo. A deal was reached and I became the owner of the turbo engine and some four weeks later my car went into Rogue Motorsport to have the new engine fitted. The car was with Rogue for seven long weeks, mainly due to the amount of custom work that had to be done to fit the engine and also the wiring (but also because I'm a difficult customer and had several special requests!).

I've had the car back for about 2 weeks now and covered about 1000 miles, this car is my only car and I do a lot of miles. It's not a show car or a trailer queen, it gets driven a lot and it gets driven hard. The first week, honestly, I loved it about 50% of the time and hated it the other 50%, this was mainly due to the uprated clutch. This week, I'm much better with the clutch and the split is probably 99% love!

So what is it like to drive? It's odd, but it retains mainy of the characteristics of a beams engine, the power delivery is very similar, there's just a lot more of it! It sounds almost the same, when I heard it on the dyno, I said to Patrick "Wow, it still sounds like a BEAMS!" To which Patrick replied "A BEAMS on steroids!". Whilst at the dyno, I got to see my plot overlayed on a standard (but fully rebuilt 3SGTE with a GT3070 turbo), we both make the same peak power but mine comes in 1000rpm earlier all the way up to 6000RPM.

I guess the other strange thing about how it drives is, as there is minimal lag, the car doesn't feel that fast, it's not like other 350RWHP MR2's with lag-lag-lag-POWER. It's quite deceptive, you have to keep an eye on the speedo, it's going up almost as quick as the rev counter, so you're in license losing territory very quickly. The engine also loves to rev high, I've found myself automatically using one gear lower than I would before to accomodate this.

Anyway, on to the specifications. You probably know most of this from the for sale ad but I've filled in additional items specific to my car.

Redtop Beams 3SGE
- 86.5mm Wossner forged pistons, custom
- Eagle con-rods
- ACL Main Bearings
- ACL Big End Bearings
- ACL Thrust Bearings
- ARP main bolts
- Toyota Oil Filter
- Toyota BEAMS Gasket Set
- Rogue Oil Cooler Bypass
- ARP Headstuds
- BEAMS Cambelt

Fuel system
- 700cc top feed injectors
- 255 / hr fuel pump
- FSE Fuel Pressure Regulator inc gauge
- Inline bullet fuel filter

Turbocharger Assembly
- GT2860RS Turbocharger (0.60 AR)
- Custom BEAMS 4 - 1 stainless steel tubular manifold
- Custom 2.5" downpipe

Engine management
- Link G3 XLEM ECU
- Link G3 XLEM extended Loom kit

Transmission
- My 100k mile E153 gearbox
- OS Giken single plate clutch and light weight flywheel
- Royal Purple gear oil (not very common on the UK MR2 scene)

The main difference from the original plan is the use of 2.5" pipe for the downpipe rather than 3". This is because I wanted to retain the air-con compressor as a) I'd just paid

#2 Jake

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 11:17 AM

sounds awesome

didn't toms do a turbo rs200 only like 150 though
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#3 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 11:18 AM

interesting. i wish he gave more info on the "standard but fully rebuilt 3sgte with GT3070"

he's using a smaller turbo so that would account for the power coming on earlier, also has he used the stock vvti? that would also help for the lower and topend.

was the 3sgte with gt3070 gen2 or 3? stock cams? tuned ecu?

but yeh, the reason why you wouldnt turbo a beams is becuase

1: where do you find one
2: if you found one and bought it you wouldnt have enough money left to turbo it

but yeh only benefit in the beams i would think is the vvti, i'm guessing the CR has been dropped significantly.

wonder how hard it'd be to just find a beams head etc? can the blacktop head be fitted to 3sgte bottom end?

#4 WaynO

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 01:49 PM

No VVti was used and the ratio was dropped to 8:1

BEAMS are not that expensive anymore and you dont need a half cut to get the job done either.

Have a look around the BEAMS forums mate plenty of info there!

#5 Cuts

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 02:20 PM

You could just as easily lower the compression in a gen3 3s-ge and turbo that and get very similar results.

In a low compression beams vs a rebuilt standard 3sgte the beams has the advantage because of the more aggressive cams, the vvti wont give you any more power just let it come on slightly earlier.


Still sounds cool though to say you have a turbo beams

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#6 Euphoria

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 04:30 PM

QUOTE (Cuts @ Jun 7 2009, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Still sounds cool though to say you have a turbo beams


Alot of money just to say you have a turbo beams lolhit.gif

#7 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 03:42 PM

so basically if he hasnt got vvti it's just like a gen3 3sgte but with cams and a better inlet/quads...?

dropped to 8:1...? standard gen3 is 8.5 and gen2 is 8.8 why so low...?

so if you already had a beams and wanted to go faster then rebuild it and chuck a turbo on, but if you havent got a beams or 3s just get a 3sgte and build it proper with cams?



#8 trdee

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 04:03 PM

beams head has better flow too afaik

#9 Cuts

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (trdee @ Jun 8 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
beams head has better flow too afaik


only due to more agressive cams.

the vvti aside its just a 3s-ge with COP and a nice red rocker cover and plenum.

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#10 DrNick

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:20 PM

QUOTE (Cuts @ Jun 8 2009, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
only due to more agressive cams.

the vvti aside its just a 3s-ge with COP and a nice red rocker cover and plenum.


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#11 GT3071R

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:21 PM

QUOTE (Cuts @ Jun 8 2009, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the vvti aside its just a 3s-ge with COP and a nice red rocker cover and plenum.


Not true, The beams heads have an included valve angle of ~34degrees (Wayne you want to measure yours to make sure this just isn't a black-top thing.) The GenI/II/III 3SGTE's all have an included valve angle of 45degrees. Tt's for this reason you can by 13mm cams for BEAMS 3S engines, and only 10.8?mm cams for earlier models. With the wider angle head if you're cams are to big you can have problems with valve interference.

Don't see the point. You'd be better off buying a ST246 Caldina GT-Four N engine. more modern again, turbo, 9.0:1comp, side intake, direct fire ignition.

Cheers
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#12 Cuts

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:36 PM

didnt know that, but thats irrelevant, no one is going to run that much lift on a street car.


the point is a gen3 with the same size cams will make about the same power as a beams, just have a different power curve.

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#13 GT3071R

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:48 PM

I would biggrin.gif, and have them in a 4AGE I've built, well not 13mm, but 10mm, 309deg, feeding 12.5:1comp pistions. Now just need a car for that engine. Unfortunatly the Mighty RT40 was left to the wreckers when I left Broken hill sad.gif

Jordan
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#14 sydneyGT4

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 10:55 AM

QUOTE (GT3071R @ Jun 11 2009, 06:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't see the point. You'd be better off buying a ST246 Caldina GT-Four N engine. more modern again, turbo, 9.0:1comp, side intake, direct fire ignition.

Cheers
Jordan



What would be cheaper? the Gen 4 or the beams?
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#15 WaynO

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 12:27 PM

QUOTE (sydneyGT4 @ Jun 19 2009, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What would be cheaper? the Gen 4 or the beams?


From what Ive seen the BEAMS is definately WAY cheaper then a Gen4 3SGTE! Thats in stock form of course not worked like this BEAMS! chuckles.gif

#16 neil y

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 05:34 AM

Gen4 3SGTE is hard to find, isn't it ?

#17 trdee

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 09:59 AM

QUOTE (GT3071R @ Jun 11 2009, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would biggrin.gif, and have them in a 4AGE I've built, well not 13mm, but 10mm, 309deg, feeding 12.5:1comp pistions. Now just need a car for that engine. Unfortunatly the Mighty RT40 was left to the wreckers when I left Broken hill sad.gif

Jordan

if i hadnt just installed a 4AGZE i would probably take that engine tongue.gif

#18 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 11:45 AM

why not massive lift on the cams on a street car...? so long as the duration wasnt crazy then it'll still be tame enough wouldnt it...?


oh well. guess i'll have to wait and see for myself. me want 10.3mmlift and 272or264.

anyone seen those 3S cams on ebay. looked up specs. massive duration but not much lift.....? think 305 and 8.6mmlift or something?

#19 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 12:02 AM

Thread revival. Its a shame there doesnt seem to be many playing with the beams and a turbo combo.

If your considering buying and rebuilding a gte for decent, its worthwile to consider starting with a beams.

They can be had fairly cheap. The cost of forged rods and pistons isnt all that diff to a std 3sgte, and can be offset buy not needing to purchase upgraded valves or cams, as the std beams head will make peak power higher, similar to a 3s with 264 or 272s.

#20 Cuts

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:23 PM

Would be very interesting to see the difference. 

 

Or just bite the bullet and run a 2ar-fe + T


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#21 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 07:04 PM

Other reasons to start with a beams is:

Vastly better inlet manifold, its side feed with trumpets and a 65mm throttle body.

Coil on pack ignition setup. No dizzy.

People spend exorbitant amount fitting those things to gen2/3s.

Until you find a way to get the 2az in, beams is better still.but yeh, alloy block and 2.4L is winning.

#22 Cuts

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 08:24 PM

dizzy doesn't power level, just more moving parts to go wrong.

 

But yes the 2ar or 2az is the ideal


ST205 Group A Rallye, #61 of 77......350kw atw @ 23 psi on E85. http://www.ozcelica....up-a-rallye-61/
GRX133 Mark X 350s http://www.ozcelica....cuts-new-daily/
 

 





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