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2zzge has a misfire at idle, doesn't seem to be driving as well, occasionally backfires on engine brake


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#1 trd_st_162

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 08:11 AM

Hey all,

My 2zzge seems to not be its old self anymore. Its always had a slight miss at idle, but these days it feels extremely sluggish from about 1000-2500rpm.

 

When engine braking down a hill I have got the car to back fire before quite loudly too.

 

The other thing i've noticed is that the transition to LIFT doesn't seem to be noticable at all, it used to be an ON and OFF thing, but these days it just seems like a continuation of the revs (while I can JUST notice an increase)

 

I'm wondering if maybe one lift bolt (or maybe both) has broken?

I was wondering what might be causing the misfire (rough idle). At one stage at the lights it felt like it was going to stall (went to about 400-500rpm)

 

Thanks :)



#2 MattsZR_126

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 08:29 AM

How many k's on the engine? Have you ran a diagnostic check for DTC codes? I would say you're injectors are in need of a clean, either dump some injector cleaner in there or have them flushed professionally. 

For the lift issue, has the OCV (Oil Control Valve) ever been changed? These can clog up with carbon and make a noticeable difference in the transition of the cams. You will never notice a broken lift bolt, they only give you slightly less power if snapped but if your car has more than 30,000k's and is built before Oct 2002 you will have a snapped intake bolt. 

A final thing to check is your IACV (Idle Air Control Valve), this sits below the throttle body and is an area where air can bypass the shut throttle plate to keep the engine running when your foot isn't on accelerator its very common for these to be clogged up with carbon deposits and should be cleaned with pipe cleaners and carby cleaner every 50,000k's or so



#3 moo11123

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 10:08 AM

Are you running the stock airbox?



#4 trd_st_162

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 08:45 AM

Thanks heaps for the suggestions I will be sure to check them all.

I am running the stock airbox but with the butterfly removed.

 

An interesting thing happened yesterday. I was leaving my mates place last night and went to start the car (when it was cold) and the car started with a bit of a miss and then all of a sudden the revs dropped even further (I kid you not it went from about 1000rpm to about 300rpm) and nearly stalled. A bit of a rev and it stabilised somewhat.

 

Could I have a bad batch of fuel maybe? It always had a bit of a miss, but never this bad, I reckon since the last fill up.



#5 trd_st_162

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 11:08 AM

Just went to fill up fuel, it took 46 litres so it must have been really low. 

 

I only got 325km out of the tank and it used 46 litres of fuel to refill to full.



#6 MattsZR_126

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 10:11 PM

Okay get that butterfly back in there ASAP its only going to do the car harm without it and screws with the IACV controls. Answer some of my questions and I'll be able to diagnose better. 

In terms of fuel, again its impossible to diagnose without knowing the simple questions I asked. Also when were spark plugs changed? Is o2 sensor ok? Is your cat running around 300-600 degrees? 

What fuel did you use? If its anything other than: BP98, BP95, Vpower, Caltex98, Caltex95, Mobil98 then I'd quit putting it in the car. Those are the only fuels that work reliably with these engines. 



#7 ChocSoldier

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 12:28 AM

I thought the car needed minimum 96 (so basically 98 only)?

Another thing you might want to add to the list is cleaning the MAF, could be another possible contributor to sluggishness and poor idle.


2009 370Z (close enough to a 7th gen :P)

2002 ZZT231 SX

1993 ST184 WRC Trophy


#8 stupidfoo2327

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 10:41 AM

i had this problem, twice. First time it was the ignition coils, second time they reckon it was my O2 sensor as it was faulty (but I also had a faulty thermostat also which stopped my car from reaching optimum operating temperature quickly, making it sluggish).



#9 MattsZR_126

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:07 PM

I thought the car needed minimum 96 (so basically 98 only)?

Another thing you might want to add to the list is cleaning the MAF, could be another possible contributor to sluggishness and poor idle.

Australian Cars are 95 or higher, see the manual. But fuels like Metro95, United95 etc do not have the same quality control so they are more like 92-94



#10 ChocSoldier

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:34 PM

Australian Cars are 95 or higher, see the manual. But fuels like Metro95, United95 etc do not have the same quality control so they are more like 92-94

This is mine, does yours definitely say 95? Keep in mind mine's an 02 so things may have changed.

Syqi9ts.jpg

Also, I thought I'd add. I had similar issues with stalling and a big lag in acceleration when taking off on Friday, cleaned my MAF and so far there's been no issues.


2009 370Z (close enough to a 7th gen :P)

2002 ZZT231 SX

1993 ST184 WRC Trophy


#11 moo11123

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 09:29 PM

Want to buy my stock fuel injectors $100?

have 77000kms on them.

 

they are too small for boost



#12 trd_st_162

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:34 AM

Thanks all for the suggestions. Sorry matt I forgot to reply to you

 

How many k's on the engine? 156k on the engine and car

Have you ran a diagnostic check for DTC codes? I did a few months ago but it wasn't doing this problem at the time. I should really go through it tonight to make sure there are no codes

 

For the lift issue, has the OCV (Oil Control Valve) ever been changed? 
To be honest I don't think it has been changed.

 

The most strangest thing is if I start it up cold in the morning, for the first 10 seconds or so it seems to idle ok, then all of a sudden (this is without moving the car or even touching the accelerator) the revs will drop to about 600rpm and you can hear the miss quite badly.

 

I will be sure to pop the butterfly back in (its just so quiet without it, I can barely hear lift lol) over the weekend.

 

The plugs haven't been changed yet, and I think the coil packs would be original. Am I able to check the resistence setting of each coil to determine if there is one bad coil in the lot?

The car feels very sluggish even when its warm at all rpm (not as good as it felt when I first got it).

 


Edited by trd_st_162, 15 October 2015 - 11:40 AM.


#13 trd_st_162

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:35 AM

Want to buy my stock fuel injectors $100?

have 77000kms on them.

 

they are too small for boost

Thanks for the offer. I might hang off a bit till I know exactly what is causing the problem.



#14 moo11123

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:06 PM

Try turning the ignition key on and testing the fuel injector and coil pack voltages. 



#15 MattsZR_126

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Posted 18 October 2015 - 06:52 PM

How many k's on the engine? 156k on the engine and car

Have you ran a diagnostic check for DTC codes? I did a few months ago but it wasn't doing this problem at the time. I should really go through it tonight to make sure there are no codes
 

For the lift issue, has the OCV (Oil Control Valve) ever been changed? 
To be honest I don't think it has been changed.

 

The most strangest thing is if I start it up cold in the morning, for the first 10 seconds or so it seems to idle ok, then all of a sudden (this is without moving the car or even touching the accelerator) the revs will drop to about 600rpm and you can hear the miss quite badly.

 

I will be sure to pop the butterfly back in (its just so quiet without it, I can barely hear lift lol) over the weekend.

 

The plugs haven't been changed yet, and I think the coil packs would be original. Am I able to check the resistence setting of each coil to determine if there is one bad coil in the lot?

The car feels very sluggish even when its warm at all rpm (not as good as it felt when I first got it).
 

Cheers, been very busy so apologies for late reply.

I'd definitely clean the IACV chamber attached to the underside of the throttle body, that should make it smoother. Then dump a whole bottle of injector cleaner in the fuel tank, then replace the spark plugs with OEM ones. Then run a scan to see if its throwing a code. Putting the butterfly back in will help with the smoothness also. Basically the car is either getting a lack of air, fuel or spark. Its common for these engines when cold to be jerky because the sheer amount of carbon that clogs the IACV. 

Then I'd replace the OCV filter its very easy change but ensure you get a metal filter from Toyota, they sold me a plastic one despite the chassis number corresponding. See this article: http://au.toyotaowne...ltersstrainers/



#16 trd_st_162

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 01:18 PM

Wow thanks heaps for all the info, I really appreciate it.

 

With regards to IACV chamber, is there a particular gasket/oring behind the 2 mating surfaces which I may need to replace if I start the cleaning job?

 

I put the butterfly back on and I must admit it is smoother now.

I checked the resistance on all the coils and they all came up with similar figures.

 

I checked the condition of the plugs, the plug closest to the timing chain was black (even the insulator was black) so I think there might be an issue there.

 

Strangely enough I still get a backfire when going down hill (quite loud too) so maybe its a blocked 

 

I know this sounds strange but could it just be that the plugs are old and need to be replaced (as a result not firing the mixture and causing it to come out of the exhaust unignited).

 

Thanks again I look forward to doing the next bits.



#17 moo11123

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 02:38 PM

My car used to shoot flames on gear changes in lift, loud backfire like a small gunshot. it happens when you open up the intake and exhaust (more like bashing out the catalytic converter), but yours sounds a little more serious than the ordinary. 

 

definitely get some iridium spark plugs in there :)


Edited by moo11123, 20 October 2015 - 02:38 PM.


#18 MattsZR_126

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 06:03 PM

Wow thanks heaps for all the info, I really appreciate it.

 

I checked the condition of the plugs, the plug closest to the timing chain was black (even the insulator was black) so I think there might be an issue there.

 

No drama, its why I'm here. Black?! That means you are running rich in that cylinder, not good. Possibly a leaky injector? It's strange that one cyclinder should get more fuel than the others.

Also for the record while I do reccomend Iridium plugs you can use copper plugs that are gapped properly as they produce a much stronger spark but aren't as precise as Iridium. 



#19 trd_st_162

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 09:54 AM

My car used to shoot flames on gear changes in lift, loud backfire like a small gunshot. it happens when you open up the intake and exhaust (more like bashing out the catalytic converter), but yours sounds a little more serious than the ordinary. 

 

definitely get some iridium spark plugs in there :)

Haha yeah my flames are probably because somethings on fire the engine bay lmao

 

 

No drama, its why I'm here. Black?! That means you are running rich in that cylinder, not good. Possibly a leaky injector? It's strange that one cyclinder should get more fuel than the others.

Also for the record while I do reccomend Iridium plugs you can use copper plugs that are gapped properly as they produce a much stronger spark but aren't as precise as Iridium. 

Hey Mate,

Thanks for your info, I suppose better rich than lean haha. You could be right regarding leaky injector. I will have to get some good injection cleaner to see if it cleans it up.

 

I would love to service the vvtl filters, there were 2 I believe. You wouldn't happen to know the part numbers for both would you?

Thanks again :)
Adrian



#20 MattsZR_126

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 11:09 AM

Neither is good but I guess rich could potentially be better because you're not running the cylinder dry. I would call a local mechanic who has a supersonic bath, then get him to flush all 4 injectors. Shouldn't cost too much or take too much time but difficulty is finding the time to take them off and get them to him etc. 

Negatory on the part numbers, you'll just have to ask the stealership, sorry.



#21 ChocSoldier

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 01:32 AM

Oil Control Valve (OCV) Strainers:
15678-21010 - VVT OCV Strainer - $11.44
15678-46010 - Lift OCV Strainer (replaced by 15678-46020) - $7.66

There's also a metal gasket for the Lift OCV, 15338-22010, should also replace it to minimise the chance of leaks. Still waiting on mine from Japan, so I can change the Lift OCV out ($9.90 from Toyota)

Keep in mind I already got the strainers/filters and I got the plastic ones. If you get a metal version of the Lift filter and it has a different part number, please post the part number here!

2009 370Z (close enough to a 7th gen :P)

2002 ZZT231 SX

1993 ST184 WRC Trophy


#22 trd_st_162

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 09:38 AM

Thank you very much for that. 

It appears that the Lift OCV part number for my car came up as 

15338 GASKET, CAM TIMING OIL CONTROL VALVE HOUSING

15338-88600

 

Instead of the 15338-22010 that you mentioned:

 

http://www.toyodiy.c...4.html?hl=15338



#23 ChocSoldier

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:03 PM

Thank you very much for that. 

It appears that the Lift OCV part number for my car came up as 

15338 GASKET, CAM TIMING OIL CONTROL VALVE HOUSING

15338-88600

 

Instead of the 15338-22010 that you mentioned:

 

http://www.toyodiy.c...4.html?hl=15338

I've looked it up just then and they're the same part, the number I gave is just the substituted/updated part number. I use the Toyota EPC app because it has diagrams, used to use ToyoDIY until they were forced to take diagrams down.

gsfwom7.jpg


2009 370Z (close enough to a 7th gen :P)

2002 ZZT231 SX

1993 ST184 WRC Trophy


#24 trd_st_162

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 01:23 PM

I've looked it up just then and they're the same part, the number I gave is just the substituted/updated part number. I use the Toyota EPC app because it has diagrams, used to use ToyoDIY until they were forced to take diagrams down.

gsfwom7.jpg

 

Brilliant thanks heaps you have been very helpful. I might do a few things at once to really bring the car up to a much better running condition (stupid drive belt is still bothering me haha)



#25 trd_st_162

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:58 AM

Hey all,

I'm still unfortunately suffering the same issues.

 

In the morning when trying to back out of the driveway there is NO power at all (don't even have enough power to reverse backwards). more acceleration out of the driveway makes the car bog down even more.

 

I put a new OEM maf sensor in but this hasn't changed anything. I have new plugs too.



#26 ChocSoldier

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:32 AM

Hey all,

I'm still unfortunately suffering the same issues.

 

In the morning when trying to back out of the driveway there is NO power at all (don't even have enough power to reverse backwards). more acceleration out of the driveway makes the car bog down even more.

 

I put a new OEM maf sensor in but this hasn't changed anything. I have new plugs too.

Tried scanning for codes again? Either with Toyota EPC or a scan-tool that does dealer-level stuff as well, e.g. Snap-On, etc, not generic OBD2

 

I've looked through the repair manual and there was nothing listed for testing coil-packs, just resistance checks for the cam and crank position sensors under the Ignition part of the manual. Under the fuel (SFI) part of the manual, there's only stuff for checking MAF (which you've already replaced), OCV, TPS, etc which you may want to do as well, just to rule stuff out.

Have you got a copy of it? There's 2 volumes, about 1900 pages total, and I think I got mine off NewCelica or CelicaHobby but let us know if you can't find it.


2009 370Z (close enough to a 7th gen :P)

2002 ZZT231 SX

1993 ST184 WRC Trophy


#27 trd_st_162

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 12:08 PM

Tried scanning for codes again? Either with Toyota EPC or a scan-tool that does dealer-level stuff as well, e.g. Snap-On, etc, not generic OBD2

 

I've looked through the repair manual and there was nothing listed for testing coil-packs, just resistance checks for the cam and crank position sensors under the Ignition part of the manual. Under the fuel (SFI) part of the manual, there's only stuff for checking MAF (which you've already replaced), OCV, TPS, etc which you may want to do as well, just to rule stuff out.

Have you got a copy of it? There's 2 volumes, about 1900 pages total, and I think I got mine off NewCelica or CelicaHobby but let us know if you can't find it.

Thanks heaps for all the info. I will have to scan codes tonight on my laptop. I have Toyota EPC and the usb cable so that should help.

 

It stinks of fuel after a drive (especially if I give it some lol)



#28 moo11123

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:45 PM

I still have my 4 mint fuel injectors for sale if your keen.

 

Have you done a compression test mate?

 

Are you running stock ECU or apexi powerfc?

 

 

i really think u should do a dry compression test and post the results.



#29 trd_st_162

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 08:46 AM

Hey All,

haven't had much time to check over the car again but I am still managing to putt along in it.

Here are some notes

The car still feels flat throughout the whole RPM

 

I can replicate the following situation every time the car gets remotely cold:

- Start car...

- Car starts relatively quickly and idles with a slight miss

- After approximately 15 seconds the cars revs drop considerably and the car is barely able to stay running (revs drop and it starts missing,  like its going to stall).

- If I try and rev the car feels like its going to make the car stall even more (like revving a car out of petrol)

- If I bring up the throttle VERY slightly it will eventually stabilize and seem to hold a decent idle (although u can hear its missing and its still low on power).

- The exhaust stinks of fuel, it smells rich as. 

The situation above occurs every time EVEN with the MAF sensor unplugged (idling only of course) which makes me think its not the MAF.

 

I can't think of what would cause it to have this exact issue everytime so that it was consistent. 



#30 ZRB

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:40 AM

Injectors?




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