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St185 anti lag


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#1 Dvsone

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 12:30 PM

Hey guys,
Just after some info on anti lag set ups for the st185. Has anyone here done it? What's involved? Obviously need an ecu that can run it but what else would i be looking at to get it all set up? What levels of boost can you run on and off throttle?
Downsides? It will burn out the turbo pretty quick i assume and also f**k the exhaust.
Just trying to weight up if it is worth it or not really.
Thanks

#2 Cuts

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:17 PM

There is a couple of ways to do anti lag, most aftermarket ecus can do a basic version which is just pulling heaps of timing out of it, so combustion happens right before or just as the exhaust valve is opening. These systems only work with your foot on the throttle.

 

The correct (RE what the 205's and pretty well all rally cars after had) is to have a valve that lets air in the exhaust manifold, then the ecu dumps in heaps (HHEEAAPPSS) of fuel and pulls a little timing. In this case combustion happens both in the combustion chamber, then again in the manifold. The excess fuel mixes with the fresh air let in through the valve and the temperature of the manifold and gasses escaping the cylinder is enough to ignite the mixture. These systems work from idle. 

 

So after that, yes you can get a ecu to do basic antilag/launch control, yes it's bad for the turbo, manfold and valves, but only if you sit on anti lag all day. 

To give you an example, I've been running a power fc pro for about 6-8 years, and I've done many many many hard launches using launch control, I've just pulled the head off and the valves are still mint. 


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#3 Dvsone

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 10:43 AM

Thanks for the info Cuts that's exactly what i was after. Do you know where i can get the valve for the exhaust? Is it something most turbo places would have and any exhaust shop should be able to weld it in?

#4 Cuts

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 01:33 PM

No prob. 

This sort of valve is not really an off the shelf thing, it needs to be capable of high temps not just a simple air solenoid.

 

below is a pic of the ST205 Group A Rallye/ WRC anti lag setup, all the grp a/wrc have this system in place but it's dormant (needed for wrc rules at the time).

 

CIMG6061.JPG


ST205 Group A Rallye, #61 of 77......350kw atw @ 23 psi on E85. http://www.ozcelica....up-a-rallye-61/
GRX133 Mark X 350s http://www.ozcelica....cuts-new-daily/
 

 


#5 Dvsone

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 06:07 PM

ah ok so would that setup fit on a 185 if i could find one or would you have to change heaps of other shit? Someone has to do an aftermarket equivelant somewhere.

Now if i go for the proper setup with the exhaust port valves how are they activated? Would it be something you can enable and disable via different engine maps in the ecu?

#6 Cuts

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 09:24 PM

The heads have a different bolt pattern so no the manifold won't bolt up. 

The ecu activates it when the correct parameters are met (engine up to temp, anti lag switch on etc). 


ST205 Group A Rallye, #61 of 77......350kw atw @ 23 psi on E85. http://www.ozcelica....up-a-rallye-61/
GRX133 Mark X 350s http://www.ozcelica....cuts-new-daily/
 

 


#7 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 11:35 PM

Youd have to find old tte parts or custom fab. Alot of money for what gains are you after?

#8 Dvsone

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:53 AM

I have the car on club plates at the moment and still want it as a weekend street car but i am also looking at doing some track days so i can have some real fun with it and would like to have the anti lag setup to switch on when i hit the track. Just trying to work out if it is worth it.

#9 Fodder

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 04:38 PM

Track days generally speaking you won't be coming to a stop often which is where you'd see the gains from anti-lag - I think for occasional track work you could get a lot more value for less money without adding anywhere near the same wear and tear to components.


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#10 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 05:32 PM

Yeh, bang for buck i think there'd be better things. Tho that depends on what crazy spec your car is already at i suppose....

But seeing as it doesnt appear you have an aftermarket ecu yet, id say there'd be many things on that list before antilag.

#11 Dvsone

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 06:15 PM

I have most things ready to go already just still running stock ecu and stock boost until i decide which way to go. The car currantly has a fresh rebuilt engine with forged pistons and rods, ported head with oversize valves, hks cams, 1000cc injectors rail and fuel pump, water to air cooler with methonol cool mist kit, new high flowed turbo, 3 inch dump pipe and exhaust. Oh and a new clutch and driveshafts and diff mount and a few other bits and pieces.
I was looking at getting the motec ecu and running around 18 - 20 psi boost and see where that leaves me in terms of power and drivability but was hoping to explore the anti lag option while i was at it

#12 Schulzy

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 07:18 PM

Easiest way to do anti lag these days is with a dbw throttle body. Ecu keeps throttle open when you have come off the throttle retards the timing heaps and puts in fuel and works just like normal anti lag. Very similar to the hot blowing double diffuser setups f1 cars were using a few years ago.

#13 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:03 PM

Imho, money better spent on a garrett bb turbo and 6boost manifold etc.

Hiflows are notoriously laggy (in which case antilag would help) and ive not come across any making what i would consider decent numbers, in that they have the lag of a big turbo, but hp of a small turbo.

Also, obv motec is real nice, but i think a bit overpriced for the application. A haltech elite 750 or ps1000 will do all you need at prob half the cost.

Also, the std st205 system iirc as mitch said its defunct and only there for homologation, but the pipes they used are also too small to work effectively. If you find pics of the wrc cars they are much bigger.

Otherwise i could give you some bits of the st205 exh manifold i have. But its purely cosmetic.

#14 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:04 PM

Oh, also id think you'd also need the inconel type exh turbine on your turbo. Or it'll be short lived.

#15 Dvsone

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:22 PM

Ideally i wanted to keep the 185 looking fairly standard but having a lot more punch which was why i went the high flow ct26 and the wta not front mount but i have noticed a descent amount if lag in the turbo and can only imagine it being more prominent as i increase the boost levels so may be worth looking into a diff turbo. I'll do a bit of research on here as to what turbo's will give me better results

I will look into the Haltech too, have heard good things but haven't had much to do with them before.

If the 205 stuff is mainly just cosmetic then i won't waste my time stuffing around with it but the dbw throttle idea is worth looking into. Has anyone here had this setup? Pro's and con's?? Pricing?

Thanks for all the info guys

#16 Dvsone

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:26 PM

Ok maybe a dumb question but what's the inconel type exh turbine? Just a lot stronger design to handle the air/fuel igniting in the exhaust??

#17 Cuts

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 09:08 PM

I hadn't got to that point yet but, yeah you're much better off spending the money on a better turbo. If you got a GT28 based turbo it can go under the stock heat shield using the standard manifold. Which is money better spent. Forget anti lag, if you really must have it, use the basic antilag most aftermarket ecus support.


ST205 Group A Rallye, #61 of 77......350kw atw @ 23 psi on E85. http://www.ozcelica....up-a-rallye-61/
GRX133 Mark X 350s http://www.ozcelica....cuts-new-daily/
 

 


#18 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 09:44 PM

Even a gt30 will fit under the exh heat shield with some mild tweaking.

Yeh, stronger material. I think all garret gt turbos have inconel, unsure about the ol ct26 (obv not the ceramic ones)

#19 Dvsone

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:38 AM

Shattered all my dreams haha.
Ok i think i'll take your advice and start with a turbo & manifold and get the ecu first, do the tune and then i can revisit the anti lag idea if i still want to

#20 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 12:36 PM

Better shattered dreams now than after you have hemorrhaged a lot of money.

But, yeh. As said you can get a fairly effective antilag/luanch control setup when you fit your aftermarket ecu.

Think you want a clutch switch added for this.

Id do this first, see how long your rebuilt ct26 holds up, then fit a garrett when the exh turbine falls off.

#21 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 12:37 PM

Also, can it run e85?

#22 Dvsone

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 01:42 PM

Yeah the clutch should hold up, it's a new upgraded one anyway and the injectors are e85 compatable just need the ecu and tune to suit

#23 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:40 PM

No, a clutch switch, similar to the switch on your brake pedal which turns the brake lights on when you push the pedal, but im pretty sure a clutch switch is required to run antilag/luanch control? Or maybe its just for flat shifting...

#24 Dvsone

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 06:06 PM

Oh yeah i get ya. Hmm would make sense i guess unless the ecu just picks up when the rpm drops to a certain level and then changes the timing and everything

#25 trentmeyer23

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 10:49 PM

im pretty sure a clutch switch is required to run antilag/luanch control? Or maybe its just for flat shifting...


You don't need a clutch switch. You can set parameters such as 0kph and rpm at 3000rpm to engage it. Generally this setup will also have a switch to engage it.

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#26 Dvsone

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:25 AM

That's what i was thinking

#27 Dvsone

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 09:28 AM

But to do it this way via the ecu you would need a dbw throttle body??

#28 TRD-021

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:57 PM

No dbw is needed. Just a clutch switch. I've looked at this option on my haltech. I'm sure all of the aftermarket ecu will be similar.
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#29 pinkst162formylady

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 02:49 PM

I understand how what trent says works for launch control. The ecu would maintain the revs whilst you had the throttle wide open ready to drop the clutch and take off. How it would work in racing changing gears etc im not sure.

Im sure there are more than one way to do it. Haltech may have an explination on their site/forums

#30 Dvsone

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:23 PM

I guess wether you need a clutch switch ir not and how it operates would depend on the ecu capabilities and the inputs ect.
I'll do a bit of searching on Haltech as that seems to be the ecu to get and see what they say




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